Inward Leadership

J.T.Jr I think what we need to come to is how you, or we, are led. Authority itself is a leadership, involving commandment. That is pretty much what Moses represents. Where we have failed is in the leadership in ourselves. — , is that clear?

D.J.M. Yes. Are you thinking of Joshua, the way he comes in?

J.T.Jr Yes. And I doubt that we have had much of that. Authority is external; that is Moses. Where we have failed is in leadership in ourselves. The thing is to arrest that, if we can.

J.H.J. I would like to understand, Mr Taylor, more what you mean by that.

J.T.Jr The inward leadership is what goes on in yourself. External leadership is what you follow if somebody says something.

Who is your leader? What do you say, Mr — — ? Who leads you?

Ques. Well, in one way we see the Lord as our Leader, don’t we?

J.T.Jr Yes. Well, that is safe enough to say that. That is external; it is Moses.

But I think where we have failed is inward leadership.

Ques. Has that to do with the water that flowed from the rock, the smitten rock?

J.T.Jr Well, that is the kind of water you want, of course. But I don’t think they wanted that kind of water.

Ques. Is it really a matter of committal on our side, Mr Taylor?

J.T.Jr Committal? It is how you discover leadership in yourself. That is, I think, where we have failed.

Ques. Do you mean that we must have our own judgment about everything?

J.T.Jr Well, that is true. As J.T. would say, that is obvious. Who was talking? I do not want to insult you. Who is it?

Rem. I am not insulted.

J.T.Jr Who was speaking? You? Oh I see, that is you. Well, what do you know about inward leadership? Anything?

Rem. I feel the importance of what you are suggesting. I hope I will know more tonight.

J.T.Jr Well, I hope we will because that is where we have failed, inward leadership.

W.B.T. Is it following our conscience before God, Mr Taylor?

J.T.Jr Well, your conscience would help you, but your conscience might excuse you.

Is that right, — ? I suppose you have felt that many times here – your conscience excuses you.

T.R. What about following the man with a pitcher of water?

J.T.Jr Well, what about him?

T.R. I just felt that would be a good start to leadership.

J.T.Jr That is external.

T.R. External?

J.T.Jr Yes. Isn’t it?

T.R. Well, I am learning too.

J.T.Jr That is external. That don’t mean you have any water. Thank God we have had people in Sydney that had a pitcher of water. Those would be pure men, I think – or pure women.

You have been pretty short of pure men in this city, haven’t you? But I think maybe the women had the pitcher of water. You are looking at me, Mr — ; what are you thinking?

Ques. I would like to enquire how this would connect with spiritual instincts in us.

J.T.Jr You would like to enquire how this would – if I can copy what you say – connect with spiritual instincts. Now you unfold that, will you?

Rem. Well, I know I have gone against my spiritual instincts.

J.T.Jr You have?

Rem. In many things, yes.

J.T.Jr Well, I think we are getting down to something then. Don’t do it again, then! That is not me speaking. Don’t make any more mistakes around here; we have had too many. Oh, Mr — , did you just get in? What do you think about this? Did you hear anything yet?

Ques. Think about what, Mr Taylor?

J.T.Jr Speaking about what our brother Mr — was saying here, spiritual instincts. He said he did not go by them.

Rem. Oh, go by them; sorry.

J.T.Jr What are you doing up there in Brisbane? What instincts do you go by up there?

Rem. I heard him say that he had not always gone by his.

J.T.Jr Oh, you heard that?

Rem. Yes, well I can say . . .

J.T.Jr Well, now, talk for yourself.

Rem. I can say the same thing.

J.T.Jr Well, we want to get at this spiritual leadership, inward Spirit leadership. The outward you know. You can always talk about the commands, you can always talk about it. Mr — , what are you saying here? You can’t be doing that, what you are doing.

Rem. Well, I was thinking of the word, “as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are the sons of God,” Rom. 8 : 14.

J.T.Jr That is Scripture; that is all that is.

Rem. That is Scripture, yes. And the . . .

J.T.Jr Oh yes! Sure, sure, sure.

Rem. Whether the truth of that is understood inwardly.

J.T.Jr But it is the inward leadership we are after, inward leadership. Mr — , don’t you be hiding back there, don’t you be hiding. Isn’t that his name? What? Oh well, what are you saying?

Rem. I am trying to catch some breath, Mr Taylor.

J.T.Jr That won’t do, we won’t take that one. That’s a mark against you!

What about this spiritual leadership, inward leadership? That is, I think, dear brethren, where we have failed. Of course it is quite easy to go by the signs. That is authority. I mean, it is easy if you don’t break them. Of course they can catch you sometime.

Ques. Would it be Joshua, Christ in you?

J.T.Jr Who is speaking now? Christ in you.

Rem. Yes, that line of things, the inward side.

J.T.Jr Who have you been leading?

Rem. The thing is I should have been leading in this respect in regard of myself; I see that.

J.T.Jr Well, that is right, and that is the way to get the company led. Some of these brethren don’t want me to call on them, you know; they want to hide. This is where we have failed. Authority – that is commandment: you do this, you do that. That is commandment. And I suppose we have all followed that to some extent. But this is where we have failed; I say it again – you have failed inwardly. You have not followed the spiritual leader. Now, we don’t want to do it again; that is all. So brethren need to understand how they are led inwardly. The Lord pretty much leaves you to yourself then, you know; He leaves it to you.

If you are just going by commandment, He don’t have any use for you much.

H.C.M. The psalmist speaks about “they, in whose heart are the highways,” Ps. 84 : 5. Does that have a bearing on what you are . . .

J.T.Jr In the heart, yes.

That is right. That is the inwards. We have had quite a bit of corruption amongst us, haven’t we? That is inward, hidden. That was a lead, but a lead in the wrong direction. Then we have had ecclesiastical leads, inward, that were wrong. So the whole thing is to get at where the secret of all this is. And the secret lies, I believe, in what Amalek means.

There is nobody here that don’t know. If you don’t know, well, say so. But I know you do know anyway.

If we get the Lord’s mind in these things now, I think we will have to see that something led you astray; and made you ready to follow something that was not right.

Ques. Do we have to keep checking up continually?

J.T.Jr You mean, call a doctor; you mean, check up?

Ans. No, check up with yourself and the Lord.

J.T.Jr Yes, call the doctor. Companies always have checkers too, to see whether they are shipping out the right lot of merchandise. That is another kind of checking. I do not know whether you are in that kind of business, Mr — .

Rem. We have to have checking.

J.T.Jr What kind of business are you in?

Ans. Foundry.

J.T.Jr Yes. Do you ship the right stuff?

Ans. We try to.

J.T.Jr Do you give them the right price and right value?

Ans. I would say that.

J.T.Jr That is all right; that is just exterior. But what about the interior? It is the interior that has got us.

Rem. There is a psalm that says, ‘My soul said for thee, Seek ye my face.’ Then the answer in the psalm is, ‘Thy face, O Lord, will I seek’ (Ps. 27 : 8).

J.T.Jr That is the inwards, and I think that has been our trouble – inwards. Authority is not too easy to follow, is it, Mr — ? You see, I am keeping you, shall I say awake? I am sure you are, but . . .

Rem. I sure am. You say, authority is not easy to follow?

J.T.Jr It is easy to follow.

Rem. It is easy to follow, yes.

J.T.Jr You find in the streets, you go by the streets, you go by the signs. That is easy. Oh, but what about the man behind the wheel? What is leading him? Our troubles, dear brethren, have been on this: that is my judgment – your inward leading. Amalek you know well; I don’t need to explain him to you. You see, there are some brethren here I could call on but they don’t want to be called on, Mr — . I am looking at them over there. I can’t see them all over here, but I don’t think they would like to be called up for an examination; because we want to get all our brethren to go by the two lines, not just the one. Go by both – go by the authority, but you go by the inwards.

J.N.G. Does this connect with what you said earlier as to being alone with God in our judgments?

J.T.Jr I think that is inward, being alone with God. What’s doing down there by the platform? What is that for, that platform? Are they just statues, or what are they down there?

D.N.A. I think we are waiting for you to pick on us, Mr Taylor, but I was wondering about the word in the psalm, “Behold, thou wilt have truth in the inward parts; and in the hidden part thou wilt make me to know wisdom,” Ps. 51 : 6.

J.T.Jr That is the inward leading, I would say. We accept external leading. Brethren accept it; they come to what is organised, what is external; but what must go with it is this inward leadership. That is in yourself. Mr Miles, haven’t you any doxology for us?

H.J.M. Not at the moment, Mr Taylor. I am being searched out and getting, I hope, some of the rubbish removed.

J.T.Jr Well, I think we ought to come to this that we should not make any more mistakes; and I think it is because we have not followed the inward leadership.

H.S.D. That must be because something else has been indulged that challenges the rights of God in the heart.

J.T.Jr Well, I believe it is right, Mr Dunlop, to bring this forward. And the externals have a great place in the world, and they have had a somewhat extensive place amongst us.

I mean by that to say, without mentioning any names, certain rich people here. That is clear enough, isn’t it? You don’t need that stated in another language, do you? Certain rich people. That is exterior, and that has rendered something of leadership that is not spiritual.

D.N.A. Do you think the word, “For the hand is on the throne of Jah,” (Ex. 17 : 16) is alluding to the throne of God in a man’s heart?

J.T.Jr Yes. Well, it is more than that. It is the influence that rich people might have on the government. I was speaking about spiritual government, government in the assembly.

H.J.G. Would it absolutely require the Spirit to have the inward leading?

J.T.Jr Oh yes, that is quite true.

H.J.G. What Paul said in Corinthians, “Do ye not know that . . . the Spirit of God dwells in you?” 1 Cor 3 : 16.

J.T.Jr Yes, that is right. Nobody could keep the Spirit out of you; but then what could happen is that Satan is against the Spirit in you.

M.R. Would Ezekiel 36 bear on it, Mr Taylor? Verse 26: ‘I will give you a new heart, and put a new spirit within you; take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and keep mine ordinances, and ye shall do them.’

J.T.Jr That is right; that is how God will deal with Judaism finally. But I don’t know whether you agree to this, that Judaism has had a great place amongst us. Do you agree with that?

M.R. You are alluding to the stress on authority, are you?

J.T.Jr The stress on riches, riches. You did not get my point?

M.R. No, I follow it now, Mr Taylor, thank you.

J.T.Jr That is riches.

D.J.M. Is that how Amalek gets in?

J.T.Jr Well, I think it is one of his weapons by which he gets in, in which he influences the government. The government of God has been influenced by persons who are rich. That is what has happened to your local assemblies.

D.J.M. If those riches are not held properly, will that lead to lust?

J.T.Jr Well, that is what it has done, and led to influencing judgments, the same as in the world. The world is influenced in politics by persons who have riches, but if you take the other side, it is influence through the same thing, only you call it by a different name.

E.A.K. Is that, “Ye cannot serve God and mammon” Matt. 6 : 24?

J.T.Jr Well, that is the scripture, but we have been doing that, you see.

E.A.K. So what I meant by that was that the enemy has got in and diverted us by materialism from what is spiritual.

J.T.Jr Well, I think it is true that the government in the assembly has been affected by these things. And that has, I believe, led to a state amongst us that has not been able to properly get the Spirit’s judgment of a matter.

J.C.H. That would be the line of “holding gain to be the end of piety,” 1 Tim. 6 : 5?

J.T.Jr Well, it is what the scripture says and I think it is true. You have brethren here who have been independent because of their means, and they never knew what it was to have a spiritual leadership in themselves.

C.M.T. So is that Laodicea, Mr Taylor?

J.T.Jr Well, it leads to that. I am not saying this is true about everybody but it has been true where it is true, that there has been independency because of riches, and it has led to a certain line of judgment amongst us that has missed the Spirit’s mind.

D.J.M. Would the line of the smiting of the rock be over against that?

J.T.Jr Well, it is. The smiting – it is through the sufferings of Christ that the Spirit has come. That is this point here in this chapter; it is the sufferings of Christ.

I think you had better admit it, whoever does it, that your independency has come from something. And if you are independent, it means that you have some basis for it and that has led to a state of things where the Spirit of God has not been free to bring about a right judgment.

D.G.B. Would what John says in his epistle as to the unction, “the unction which ye have received from him abides in you, and ye have not need that any one should teach you; but as the same unction teaches you as to all things, and is true and is not a lie, and even as it has taught you, ye shall abide in him,” 1 John 2 : 27. Does that . . .

J.T.Jr That is the spiritual leadership. And I do not just confine it to people who have means, because you may have means other than physical means. You have ability. That is the same thing.

Natural ability is the same thing as any monetary affluence. What the brethren need to do is say, ‘What ails me?’ What is my ailment? Find out why you have not had a spiritual lead, an inward lead that is right.

P.R.P. This point at which Amalek comes, is that to be understood by us?

J.T.Jr Well, it really means that as soon as the Spirit is received, the Spirit means you to be formed, and that Amalek, Satan, is against that. Therefore he uses all the means he has to frustrate the formation of Christ in you.

P.R.P. That is a point where we need to lean heavily upon the Spirit, is it?

J.T.Jr Well, that is I think the truth, Mr — , that we have not relied on the Spirit; we have relied on ability and we have relied on means.

L.M.S. Paul brings in what is inward early in Romans, Mr Taylor, doesn’t he? He says, “He is a Jew who is so inwardly; and circumcision, of the heart, in spirit,” Rom. 2 : 29.

J.T.Jr That is the secret of what he is going to proceed into in the epistle, what is inward. Now, you accept the authority and you go by the laws, outwardly you are performing all the laws, you come to all the meetings, you respect all the commandments, but you do not find this inward lead. Why? Because we are resting in certain things which are not spiritual.

E.E.R.T. Does it mean that we have to keep up to date continually with our links with the Spirit?

J.T.Jr Well, the unction would mean that. Our brother is referring to the unction. The word ‘unction’ is, I think, pretty much that – it is an active state of things.

E.E.R.T. If we let that slip, the enemy gets a greater and greater foothold.

J.T.Jr Yes, he gets it through your independency. You are independent because of certain things, and you don’t know it, and then all of a sudden you find you are swamped by the flesh, and Satan is in that. It is my conviction that we need to come to a spiritual lead inwardly. You have had leads outwardly here in this meeting, and other meetings; you’ve had it.

Ques. Would the woman in the fourth of John be an illustration at all, Mr Taylor?

J.T.Jr Well, she would be an illustration of independency.

Rem. I was thinking of her as getting the leadership in herself when she says, “Come, see a man who told me all things I had ever done,” John 4 : 29.

J.T.Jr Well, that is true enough, but her history was different. She had had five husbands, and the one she had was not her husband. It was just independency. If we judge ourselves, dear brethren, we will get help. We need to judge ourselves that we have not had a spiritual inward lead. And you have had a lead by somebody; you followed it. You had a lead by somebody else; you followed it. That was an external lead. And what we want to get down to is this spiritual lead that is absolutely related to the authority; that is Moses.

C.L.G. Daniel had an inward spiritual lead, Mr Taylor.

J.T.Jr Well, he did, and of course you want that in a man that is going to bring God out. That is what Daniel did; he brought out God in his wisdom and in his continuance. We want to continue to the end. If you do not continue to the end, you will just fall as a carcass in the wilderness.

C.T.McC. Is this spiritual thing steady, Mr Taylor?

J.T.Jr The unction, I think, means that. Our brother has alluded to the unction here. I believe it is a steadying matter, the unction.

C.T.McC. They arrived at a point when Moses’ hands were steady; he was sitting on a stone and his hands were steady (Ex. 17 : 12).

J.T.Jr Well, that shows, I think, that the local company can really steady things. And it is because meetings have been divided that the Lord has been hampered in any case.

D.N.A. Do you feel, Mr Taylor, if we were conscious of this inward leadership, any thought of rebelling against the authority of Moses would mean that we are revolting against ourselves, what is in ourselves?

J.T.Jr Well that, I think, would be so. The unction, as we have mentioned, is really the core of this thing because it is the active state. That is what is meant by the unction. “Ye have the unction from the holy one,” 1 John 2 : 20.

H.S.D. Do Aaron and Hur in our experience bear on that side of things, Mr Taylor? They seem to represent very much the inward side in the experience of the believer to reach this point of stability and steadiness. I am particularly thinking of Hur on the line of purity, which involves the elimination of admixture.

J.T.Jr Well, what the type shows is that there was a varied condition amongst the brethren; it was varied. When Moses’ hands were up, they were successful. When they were down, they were not. It was a varying state of things.

And that is another matter you know about – a varying state of things.

But the point is really you come to a spiritual lead. That is not variation. A spiritual lead inwardly is not a variation. And I believe it is what the Lord in one way is pointing to amongst us, that you want to know this lead in yourself. You have a sense of where this inward thing is: it is in Christ in this secret way in Joshua.

W.J.O. Does the communion of the Holy Spirit have any place in it?

J.T.Jr Well, it would, because if you are communing with the Spirit, it is like the activity of the unction; therefore you are in touch with the spiritual lead in yourself. So you would not say something you did not mean, you know. That is what some brethren have done; they have said something they did not mean. The unction is not in that. Why did they say something they didn’t mean? Because they were afraid. The Lord is able to lead us, but He wants us to understand not only authority, which is external. That is 1 Corinthians 11; headship is external there. You accept that, but that is not sufficient. What goes on with it is the secret line of the Spirit. That is the twelfth chapter of Corinthians.

J.G.C. In Mr Raven’s ministry, Mr Taylor, he speaks a lot about attraction and attachment. Is that on the line of spiritual leading inwardly? That is, that the saint is held by the attraction of Christ Himself.

J.T.Jr Well, I would say these ministries generally got down to enlarging on this more than they did the authoritative side. These ministers were led inwardly. It was not only that Mr Darby found out certain things; he was led inwardly, and so he never faltered really. These men do not falter, because they have the commandment, but then they have the secrecy of the personal contact with Christ which the unction is.

J.W.S. It was the poor wise man that delivered the city, wasn’t it?

J.T.Jr He was poor.

J.W.S. The poor wise man in Ecclesiastes delivered the city.

J.T.Jr Yes, he was poor but he was wise. In that sense he was rich.

J.W.S. Yes.

J.T.Jr We do not want to make any comparison between riches and poverty because there really isn’t any difference. But riches lead you generally to independency. That, I think, is the truth. And what we have had generally amongst us is that – independency. And it is not only with rich people; it is with poor people, they have been independent. They do not know the secret leadership of Christ in the soul.

H.J.G. You are speaking about Mr Darby. He did say once in his writings that what his conviction was as to a certain matter, he said, even if the whole world was against him, that it would not move him.

J.T.Jr Well, we don’t have any men around like that, we don’t have them. If you know anybody, tell me who he is. If you get a lot of people against you, you just collapse; that is all that happens. You cannot stand on your own feet. If I had all these brethren against me here tonight – maybe you are, I don’t know, maybe you are against me – but I am not like Mr Darby in any case. But I see this: that is what I see – that we have failed in inward leadership.

P.R.P. Until we get the inward conviction of what the outward is, we are not safe, are we?

J.T.Jr Well, the enemy is so clever, you know. He says, ‘You’re on the right line, all right; you’ll go ahead on that; you’re right.’ And then he gets all the brethren with you, and – ‘Oh, I’ve got them all with me now, I am right!’ And there is no inward connection with Joshua.

H.M.J. Moses had someone that he could rely on in Joshua.

J.T.Jr That is right.

H.M.J. Joshua broke the power of Amalek.

J.T.Jr That is right; exactly. You are right.

Ques. Is that what we need? I notice that Joshua is not prominent. Moses is more prominent; that is the leadership, is it?

J.T.Jr You’ve got to learn that way.

Rem. Yes.

J.T.Jr Yes.

H.M.J. I remember you saying to me that the flesh in me and in my children is the same as any other flesh.

J.T.Jr That is right!

Certainly nothing more right than that.

And they think because their name is such-and-such, it means something. It means nothing; it means nothing at all. Joshua was not related to Moses anyway. But he was there, and Moses, in ordinary language, he was the boss. Joshua was not. And there have been certain people trying to be boss when they never were under a boss. That’s kind of American language, I suppose; but you don’t mind it, do you? There are people that never would be under authority, they never would.

Ques. Is that why John addresses this matter of the unction to the children?

J.T.Jr Well, maybe. John’s children, I would say, would be pretty good children. They are all swans where I’ve been around recently, but they will find out there is plenty of flesh in them. As they go on, they will find out they are no swans at all! Do you understand this English? You are just occupied with your children. Look at that one! Look at this one! Look at that one! Wonderful! And they soon show the flesh in them. They can sing the hymns and they can talk the language, and then, what have you after that? There is no inward leadership at all in those young people. They have to be controlled outwardly. And I say again – I think, dear brethren, if you admit this – if you admit it – where we have failed is inward leadership.

E.S.T. And that means, Mr Taylor, that we have not known what the edge of the sword means.

J.T.Jr I believe that is true. The edge of the sword – it is the edge, it was sharp.

E.S.T. Yes. It contains that idea to me, that it is a sharp, drastic dealing with the thing at its origin.

J.T.Jr I believe that is right, and if we get down to this, you will find that it is the outward leadership you go by. You go by the mechanics of your automobile, you go by the streets, the names and everything, the stop signs and all that, you can do all that; and inwardly you are not right.

Rem. Well, what you are saying is very humbling because this chapter takes us immediately back to when it came up in 1939, when J.T. brought it before us. What you are telling us tonight is, if we do not face up to this, we will just keep on making mistakes like we have done so often in these years.

J.T.Jr I think that is right. You will keep on making them. It is not then the external leadership; it is not that. It is the internal leadership we want. And every person is affected by that. Brother and sister alike knows the inward leader.

Rem. Do we need, Mr Taylor, to consider the matter of Hebrews 12? Hebrews 12 – was it not written for the Jewish Christians, the earthly Christians? Positionally we would have all a tag round our necks written on – earthly Christians – unless we would work ourselves out of this position now. Would Hebrews 12 be really applicable in this case now for us?

J.T.Jr Well, that is a long chapter, you know. Don’t put that down yet! It is a long chapter. Now, what is the verse you are at?

Rem. Now, you know, the whole chapter is written as to such.

J.T.Jr Yes, I know, but the whole book is written to such.

Rem. For the earthly Christians.

J.T.Jr Yes, that is right. Now, what exact verse do you mean?

Rem. Really, what is meant there is to get the earthly Christians on the heavenly ground.

J.T.Jr Yes.

Rem. I have no special verse in mind; I have the whole chapter in view.

J.T.Jr Oh I see, you have got the whole chapter in mind.

Rem. Yes.

J.T.Jr Come to mount Zion.

Rem. Oh I did not mean we have to unfold all that.

J.T.Jr What language is he talking now? I could not understand that. Sie sprechen Deutsch? Was sprechen Sie?

Rem. Ach bitte, if you would allow me to put it down. I will be very thankful! Mr Taylor, why are the brethren laughing all the time? They are now laughing.

J.T.Jr Now I agree with you, I follow your point. It is dealing with Christians, Jewish Christians. That is what he means. And Hebrews 12 gives you the full thing we have come to. We have come to mount Zion. But the brethren may just accept that – we have come to mount Zion, and say, well, it is grace upon grace. Well, it is true. But then “the Author” (Heb. 12 : 1, A.V.) is “the Leader” (Heb. 12 : 1); the Author and the Leader are the same Person, and I believe that the inward side in Hebrews is what really the Spirit of God is at, because He is dealing with the offerings in that book, and that is the inward side – that the spiritual leadership is related not only to the authority, it is related to the offerings; that is, what happened in the offerings that Moses presented to God really related to the inwards, so that Joshua really is to be before as in this sense.

Rem. You marvel at the skill of the Lord to convict us of this, Mr Taylor. Six months ago (October 1965 Ed.) I do not suppose there was a brother or sister in this city who was more confident that they were right. I use that word ‘confident’ because that is where we stood. And maybe a good deal of externals would have suggested too we were right, although there were externals that suggested we were wrong. But the thing is the Lord has got us all on common ground now, in this failure in inward leadership – every one of us. That is how I see it.

J.T.Jr Well, I see it that way. There is nothing more that we should keep at than this line. It is how Joshua becomes to you Christ, “Christ in you” (Col. 1 : 27), as leading you into the inheritance.

H.J.M. I have been thinking, Mr Taylor, of Jeremiah 8 and the way all the bones were exposed and spread out, and then the word of conviction to them and the call to them, and then “even a stork in the heavens knoweth her appointed times, and the turtle-dove and the swallow and the crane observe the time of their coming; but my people know not the judgment of Jehovah” (v. 7). I am thinking of the inward matter and the inward instincts and the exposure of the bones, but then how it goes on, challenging the healing of “the daughter of my people” (v. 21) lightly, but clothes it with such an encouraging word. You mentioned the doctor or the physician earlier. But is there no “balm in Gilead” (v. 22)? Is there no physician there? But there is a call to come into salvation before it is too late, isn’t there?

J.T.Jr Well, I would say, trying to follow what you mean, that we have either been resting in our riches materially and following that, or resting in our human ability and following that, or resting in just mere fleshly things and following that.

H.J.M. And I was thinking too as to whether the inward instincts for us would not depend upon the unction inwardly?

J.T.Jr Well, it is the truth, and to get the brethren into this is not easy, because you may just assert things authoritatively and bring in the command; but to get brethren to leave their riches and to leave their ability and leave the natural, that is not easy. That is what the Lord bases discipleship on in Luke 14.

Now that is what we had last night in Auckland. And as our brother remarked – somebody – to me, there was a strong headwind coming over here. It was a Sydney breeze, I would think! That was a fact though, Mr — . The captain told us, ‘There is a 140 mile headwind coming against us.’

V.T.S. I wondered in that way if this principle of independence and insubjection is not one of the deepest rooted things we have to get at?

J.T.Jr It is what is here inwardly in the brethren; that is what it is.

V.T.S. When we trace it back, we might trace it back in ourselves and it goes right back to Eve, doesn’t it? – one of the first things that came in.

J.T.Jr That’s a long channel, that’s a long one, Doctor!

Ques. We have got to find it right in here, haven’t we?

J.T.Jr That is right. You don’t need to go back that far! That breeze, I hope it is not against us here in the meeting, the headwind. We want to get landed here. We want to get down to the ground. And what is in you tonight is either approving or disapproving of what has been said; and if you don’t agree with me, say so. I don’t mind your headwind, because I’m used to them.

E.A.K. I think we can say, Mr Taylor, that we are deeply convicted by the Spirit of God. That is what we are feeling, and the question of our national pride had a lot to do with what you are speaking of.

J.T.Jr Well, I would think that.

E.A.K. Because that was just bordering on Laodicea – rich and increased with goods and more spiritual than any other assembly.

J.T.Jr You see, Australia is not the 49th or 51st State; it is not that. They don’t want to be that. They are State No. 1.

E.A.K. The queen of the south figured very largely in our eyes.

J.T.Jr Yes, but they have got the American spirit out here, but they would not take the position of being the 51st State – they are No. 1 State. Everything is big, beginning with Sydney. And Melbourne says, ‘No, we’re the biggest.’ Now, that is just what is happening in the minds of the people out here. I can see it. I’m not so dumb – because they say the same things where I come from. Everything is the biggest – everything. And you see the same thing in the signs out here. Now, that has got into the meeting. Let us get rid of this thing, because if you are resting in money, that is your lead, that is an idolatrous position. If you are resting in your ability, that is the same thing. If you are resting in just lust, that is the same thing again. That is why there is no inward leadership. Therefore ‘the war against Amalek is from generation to generation’ (Exod. 17 : 16).

Rem. “By the Spirit, ye put to death the deeds of the body” (Rom. 8 : 13), and it speaks of leading – the Spirit’s leading.

J.T.Jr Well, that is I think a good point if we get hold of how Joshua acts, how Christ acts in us. Brethren want to get hold of that. How does Christ act in you?

Ques. Is it important to see that God has not changed His mind about this matter? “I will utterly blot out,” Exod. 17 : 14.

J.T.Jr He doesn’t change His mind about anything. God doesn’t. It is the Australians change his mind. Sydney and Melbourne – and Brisbane, kind of way down the line, I suppose. It is the same thing as we have got. I mean the Americans are the same thing, independence; independent people, need no help from anybody; they do not want any help, they are No. 1. And that has come over to Australia. It is imported, without any duty! I won’t call on these men because they are too close to me. I think they would rather stay in the dungeon! Now, we want to get at this thing, dear brethren. We have missed it. We have missed the inward leadership of Joshua, that is Christ, His inward leadership.

Rem. It says that not only does he deal with Amalek, but he broke the power of Amalek.

J.T.Jr Yes. Well, what are you talking about? Mr — , that is.

Rem. We are right down the bottom of the list – Adelaide.

J.T.Jr You are? That means you are the top! You say you are at the bottom! I never saw anybody else say they were at the bottom, that they were not at the top! You like that one? Let us humble ourselves. We have not had inward leadership. That is what we have not had. Let us get it, because every brother and sister can know the leadership of Christ in your own soul, and He will not lead you into what is wrong; the Lord never does that.

P.R.P. Is John a sample of this, as set out in the Revelation? I was thinking of what he says about, “I wept much” (Rev. 5 : 4), when he found no one able to open the book. He had something inwardly which was affecting him in relation to the situation.

J.T.Jr Well, I think that is a good connection, Mr Parker. But there is somebody; you see, there is somebody. You learn that Christ acts inwardly in you. That is a matter of experience. Shall I call on these people, — ?

Rem. Yes, Mr Taylor.

J.T.Jr Shall I? Who should I call on, Mr — ?

Rem. Call on me again.

J.T.Jr No, you are too safe, Mr — .

Rem. I did not know that.

J.T.Jr Oh yes, you agree with me too heartily!

Rem. What I feel, Mr Taylor, is that we did not learn the lesson of ’52. What we should have learned then in the externals, we did not go by inward leadership and we have not learned the lesson. Otherwise the generation that has followed would have been saved.

J.T.Jr Well, I believe that. “Christ in you” is really Joshua, and to find that out is experience. If brethren do not know it, then you are just ignorant – I mean, as to this part of the truth.

If you want to know Christ’s authority, His commandments, well you can read them. Commandment is Corinthians; that is commandment. But the spiritual discern that, and that is how Christ is in you.

And then there is something further than that, because “Christ in you” means you to get into the inheritance. And I think you would be less looking at your bank book, you rich people here. Some people don’t have to look at their bank book because they have got so much. They never need to bother about what the bank does for them because it don’t matter whether the bank makes a mistake! Well, that is nothing to the point.

The thing is, get hold of this inward side, dear brethren, and get on to this leadership, because you won’t make mistakes, you have the unction. Our brother here mentioned that. Where are you from, please?

Ans. Warwick.

J.T.Jr Warwick. Well, do you help them up there?

Ans. I do what I can.

J.T.Jr Well, that is what you are saying. It is the unction.

Rem. Yes.

J.T.Jr That is it; it is an active thing in you, which is not external leadership.

A.W.H.B. How is the inward leadership related to the way the Lord appears at the Supper, Mr Taylor?

J.T.Jr Well, it comes in both ways, because the commandment must be kept, but the inward side is where He actually comes. Is that true? That is the way He comes to you.

A.W.H.B. Yes. My exercise is that one has to have one’s own relations with the Lord, and yet you must also be conscious of what the Lord is doing in and through the assembly too, so that you are not independent of what is proceeding. Joshua and “Christ in you” is Colossians 2, which is a collective epistle, isn’t it?

J.T.Jr Well, I think, Mr Braden, that what you have raised is a very interesting point, because the commandment is external. The announcements have to do with that. The brethren gathering have to do with that. The brother makes the announcements. That is the externals. But where does the Lord come? The Lord comes to just, I think, what you remarked – it’s in you. That is where He comes. He comes in relation to the commandment; there is no doubt about that, because any assembly that is violating His commandments, I do not think they would have His manifestation. But the externals are not enough. Where the Lord manifests Himself to you is inside here; that is where it is. It is the inward leadership of Christ. That leads to the sanctuary, as I understand it, and the whole scope of God Himself. I think, Mr Braden, you can agree with that.

A.W.H.B. Yes, I would. But my point is – and I want help about it – is that the individual side, your individual links with the Lord – and Colossians 2 would involve that – each one is to hold fast the Head – must be related to the way the Lord is Head to the assembly collectively too.

J.T.Jr Well, that is true, but your own inward state relates to the whole company, whether they are in it or not. And what you are saying is the secret really of how the whole line of the Minister of the sanctuary comes in. You have introduced a point here that I don’t know whether the brethren are able for it.

Rem. In Colossians 2, Mr Taylor, what is inward precedes what is outward.

J.T.Jr Yes, but the outward precedes the inward. I think the brethren had better note this matter and just see whether you are able for what is being said. because the outward thing is you can come to the meeting; that is the outward thing. You arranged the meeting for six o’clock tonight. That is outward. The commandment is outward. You sit here; that is outward. The inwards is Joshua.

Rem. So that what we had in Melbourne on the occasion of your last visit, I think you said that what Christ comes to is Himself. We were reading Romans 8, you remember – “if Christ be in you” (v. 10); and that was related immediately to the essential occasion. I think we really missed the import of it, Mr Taylor.

J.T.Jr Well, if we are able for this, you see. We want to be able for it. You are able for the announcement. You had an announcement; you are able for that, so you came here.

But the inwards relate to the assembly and the body, that is where Christ is. Well, Christ is in the commandment, but that is outward. But “Christ be in you” refers exactly to yourself, the state you have got, the spirit you have got, in which He leads to all that is of God.

D.J.M. Is that the idea, “the body is of Christ,” Col. 2 : 17?

J.T.Jr The body, of Christ; is of Christ. This side, I think, — , that’s been brought up, is exactly what we need. It is inward leadership, because you can follow an announcement and say the meeting is six o’clock and come here; but to say there is anything in your soul is something different.

Ques. In John 14 verse 21, “He that has my commandments and keeps them, he it is that loves me; but he that loves me shall be loved by my Father.” Would that link with what you are saying, that there is the commandment bearing on the outward side and our conduct through the week, thinking of it in relation to the Supper, but then this love side would relate to the Spirit and our links with the Lord personally?

J.T.Jr That is the inward side; that is Joshua, I understand.

D.N.A. Do you think, Mr Taylor, that weakness on this line may lead to a lack of understanding? The psalmist speaks of going into the sanctuary and then understanding certain things (Ps. 73 : 17). I was thinking of your word as to the inward leadership of Christ leading us into the sanctuary.

J.T.Jr Well, that psalm of course would follow in a general way of what you say, but I think it is more individual, that psalm; and in fact the holiest in the wilderness is individual generally. Is that right?

Rem. Yes.

J.T.Jr Yes. Do you find that though?

Rem. Well, that is a testing word for us, Mr Taylor.

J.T.Jr Well, it is a testing word because the sanctuary in the wilderness is more individual.

It is a question of your mind, and that’s inward. Well, what is your mind? And you speak to a certain brother, you will find that mainly his business is in his mind. I have found that over here, that mainly what is in that brother’s mind is his business. He is not thinking of the sanctuary. That is maybe pretty hard talk, but that is my observation.

Ques. Is the urgency of the matter seen in Colossians? Paul speaks about “whereunto also I toil, combating” (Col 1 : 29); and also that “Epaphras, . . . combating . . . in prayers,” Col. 4 : 12.

J.T.Jr Well, I would think that is the minister, because the minister has got to travail in view of something, and he certainly does not want to bring forward the wind! That is not my objective!

Ques. Is it the spiritual body that we should be looking for, Mr Taylor? In Corinthians it says, “If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual one,” 1 Cor. 15 : 44.

J.T.Jr Well, that is so. But the mind plays a great point in that, and you just examine a brother or sister how they talk to you and you will find whether they know anything about that psalm – what is it? 73, isn’t it? That is going into the sanctuary.

E.S.T. So that the point of co-ordination and affinity in the assembly is Joshua. That is how we arrive at the assembly essentially, is it?

J.T.Jr I believe that, — . That is an inward thing. You can be attached to a brother externally because you know business. You know dentistry, you know other things; you can be attached to a brother like that, you can talk to him. You can talk business. But that is not “the sanctuary.” The mind is able to get free of that, and you go into “the sanctuary,” and all that you have been talking about, you say, ‘I’m a beast.’ Well, I believe that, again, it is individual. That is what that psalm means as far as I understand it.

E.S.T. That leads on to unity in the local assembly, does it, because we are all following the one spiritual lead inwardly?

J.T.Jr That is it. You get the Levites then; you see. You get the levitical system. Then you get the general thought of the body from that. I believe brethren should judge what their motives are, what has been their lead, what has been the lead you have got in yourself. Let them judge that, what it has been, and come to something, that Joshua’s the lead, Christ in you. He is leading you not into that, He is leading you into the sanctuary which is the collective position. The mind position is to be controlled absolutely by Christ, and that will help a lot of sicknesses amongst us.

H.S.D. Would you just open up the point of the sanctuary now in relation to the collective position? The wilderness side, as you say, it is largely individual.

J.T.Jr Well, do you agree with that, Mr Dunlop?

H.S.D. Well, I find it very searching. What I can say about myself is a real challenge. We have heard of the old brother saying to F.E.R. that he goes in when he likes.

J.T.Jr Well, that’s true.

Rem. And that relates to the individual side.

J.T.Jr Sure. F.E.R. agreed with that, didn’t he?

Rem. Yes, he did.

J.T.Jr Well, we had better agree with it. You can go in any time, and that means if you want to go in, it shows the bent of your mind. Your business is not what you are at.

H.S.D. The bent of your mind, so that therefore it becomes a settled state, that your mind resorts to that position just whenever it possibly can.

J.T.Jr Whenever you can in the wilderness, you can go out; as our brother said, ‘Any time I go in.’

D.J.M. It says, “Have your mind on the things that are above, not on the things that are on the earth,” Col. 3 : 2.

J.T.Jr Well, I think the sanctuary in the wilderness brings about that condition that you know the range of thought that is right. If you are working for an employer, you should be right with him, you should do what he wants you to do. You should be righteous. The time comes when that ceases, and you immediately would seek to get into this. Get out of all this, and get into the presence of God. That is individual. Now I believe this all leads to the collective. It is where brethren have been led individually that has been the trouble. You will find, if you look into a brother’s history, what has been the matter with him; his mind has followed his business, or he has followed some corruption. It is individual.

Then he comes and sits down in the meeting as if everything was all right, when it was not all right.

We want to get at the secret of our complaint, what is the matter with us, and we had better see to this, these things that I have mentioned.

There is riches, there is material ability, there is lust. These things are what have corrupted us, led us into the wrong paths.

J.P-n. Would what you said earlier as to the offerings, help us in regard to this?

J.T.Jr The offerings, I think, allude to the fact that they were flayed, they were opened up; and there is the perfection of Christ.

J.P-n. The inwards of Christ would really help us in judging ourselves and getting over to this line where we are occupied wholly with what is for God?

J.T.Jr The real thing is to get down to the root of what is wrong, and if you have got ability you are bound to exploit it, you are bound to do it. If you know anything, you are bound to exploit it. And going into the sanctuary in this sense in the wilderness, you say, ‘I’m a beast.’ You see Christ there. Oh, let us come to that. There He is, He is there anyway; and you rest in Him, you get free of yourself.

F.R.H. Does it involve, Mr Taylor, this line of things that we need to be constantly convicted about – “O wretched man that I am!” Rom. 7 : 24? “God be merciful to me a sinner,” Luke 18 : 13, A.V.? That should be a matter with us all the time. It would be a constancy, wouldn’t it?

J.T.Jr Well, I think we need to go by the types in these things, because the types are written for us, you know.

When you come to this point in the history of the people in Exodus, it is where they were just being discouraged and they were being influenced – and it is exactly what we have been, influenced. ‘What have we got to do all this for? Why do we have to be free of all this worldly thing? Why? We will go back to Egypt. That is the solution!’

F.R.H. This line of things in Joshua goes right through to the land, doesn’t it? That is the terminus.

J.T.Jr Now we want to get on to that line, get on to that track. There is only one track to the land, one; and what we have had is a million tracks, everybody on their own track and running their own speed!

F.R.H. You were saying elsewhere that there is only one street really, isn’t there?

J.T.Jr Straight.

Rem. Straight.

J.T.Jr Straight street. Well, that is Joshua’s street; it, leads right into the land. You get on to this inwardly, you will not need to follow any external lead, you will get right in by yourself. As that brother said, ‘I always go in; go in any time.’ Oh, how the Lord would love us to go in ourselves any time; just get into His presence any time, and just find, when you get in there, Christ there. That settles everything in your soul. You say, ‘I’m a beast.’

Ques. Is that what is involved in this writing in the book and then rehearsing it in the ears of Joshua?

J.T.Jr Rehearsing it, writing in the book. Why, we have got plenty of books, you know. They have not helped us much, these books. What better books can you get than J.N.D. and F.E.R. and J.T. books? What better books? They do not help you! What is the matter with you? What is the matter? You have got plenty of books. No, what is the matter with you is this inward side has been lust – lust for power, lust to display your ability and desire to spend your money the way you wanted to; independency. Is that too hard, — ?

Rem. No, that is the truth.

J.T.Jr I think it is the truth everywhere. Let us get at the secret of our difficulties. You get this inward lead by Joshua, and you will say to yourself, I do not need anybody else, I get in by myself to God, get into the land.

E.L.C. Mary in John 20 had nothing else but Christ. Is she a prime example of inward leadership in her sensitive seeking for the Lord?

J.T.Jr I would think so. It is affection there more with her than intelligence, but where you have got affection you can be sure intelligence will come.

E.L.C. She says later that “she had seen the Lord, and that he had said these things to her” (v. 18).

J.T.Jr Well, it shows how quick you get into the presence of God – John 20 does.

J.D.S. Do we see something of this inward lead in Rahab (Josh. 2), Mr Taylor? She had no outward link with the people of Israel, but she is immediately able to link on with those who come from Joshua, and yet she was living in a place like Jericho. In her mind she must have been completely delivered from thinking along that line, and she was able to move, do you think, in this individual leadership?

J.T.Jr Well, I would say she represents that side of us that indicates the work of God by itself.

You know, most of us have been brought up amongst brethren, what we call brethren, whatever they are; brought up amongst them and take things pretty casually. But Rahab was not that. And you have to look at yourself in that light – that is, the work of God by itself. There you have it in that woman. She has a history, but the work of God overcame all her history. And if we saw that side of the position, I believe it would deliver us from what Mr Raven was really very seriously concerned about – brethrenism. That is, you just grow up amongst brethren and you think you have got it. Rahab was not that; she was not brought up amongst brethren. And we have to view ourselves rightly thus-wise, to get free of any ordinary thought of religion and get into the scope of the Spirit of God in His own actions as Rahab shows it. So that she, I think, comes right into the New Testament in what God would set forth in her.

J.S.H. Would that mean that you arrive at something as to how Satan is dispossessed in your soul?

J.T.Jr Yes, I think it shows that you take account of the work of God by itself, and you say, ‘God did that’ and that stands, regardless of what you have brought in yourself.

D.J.M. She sent them back “another way.” Josh. 2 : 25.

J.T.Jr Another way; that is right. J.T. used to say, “another way” is Colossians; the secrecy of really Joshua to get into the inheritance.

H.G.M. The man in the ninth of John – “the works of God should be manifested in him” (v. 3); and he goes step by step until the Lord finds him. This matter of solitariness is something that is needed amongst us. As you say, we are brought up amongst so-called brethren and we have not touched this matter often.

J.T.Jr I do not think we have. Therefore, Rahab shows the work of God by itself that she rested in. And you have to say to yourself, ‘Well, all these did not help me. It is God’s own work in my soul that helped me.’

D.B.J. Even the public position we take up according to 2 Timothy involves what is inward, does it? Because it is “with those that call upon the Lord out of a pure heart” (v. 22).

J.T.Jr That is the inwards, I would say, inward leadership. And righteousness is the leader there. It is a moral thought that righteousness would mark every Christian so that he would say, ‘Is this right? I’ll follow that.’ “With those that call upon the Lord out of a pure heart,” I believe, is an allusion to Joshua.

Rem. And Peter, Mr Taylor, makes an interesting reference, something very similar. He says, “Having purified your souls by obedience to the truth to unfeigned brotherly love” (1 Pet. 1 : 22), as though the truth would move us in that direction as we are obedient to it. And then he says, “Love one another out of a pure heart fervently” (v. 23).

J.T.Jr Well, I have to say, I admit, that we do not know much about Joshua’s position. But I think that is the truth.

A.W.H.B. What tests you is what your mind reverts to when you have got a moment of leisure; whether your mind goes to problems in your business or your home, or whether it reverts to the spiritual side.

J.T.Jr Well, I think that is exactly the statement we should agree to.

You have got to be righteous in your business, you have got to fulfil the time that you have agreed to do. And even then you may get an outlet to God, even then. But when you are released, the thing is you get to your own company, and your own company really means this: you have got an inward leadership in Joshua. What we need to see too is that the devil will never want you to get on in your soul, you know; he don’t want you to get on in your soul. If there is any idea of formation in you, the devil’s against it right away. So “Amalek came.” He did not wait, he came, and he comes every day. If he sees some formation growing in somebody here tonight, he don’t want that, he will act against it. And Satan will just deceive you by your own natural proclivities and he will push them in you; whereas what Joshua’s to get at is to deal with that and break it. It is not only that Christ has broken things, but we break them. We break them through Christ being in us.

H.V.L. Would “the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus” (Rom. 8 : 2) be that inward side, a fixed position I arrive at inwardly?

J.T.Jr Well, it is a fixed position that nothing can change, you know. “The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus” is positional. We had something about that last night too, that is, the difference between what is positional and what is related to the Person of Christ. The position is fixed, as that verse shows, you know, that you are speaking of. It is “the law” related to it, which is related to where Christ is. “There is . . . no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus”; that is positional. But the Person, that is, Jesus, alludes to how you know Him inwardly in this connection.

Well, He is leading you into that. The fixed thing is there, but to get into it is another thing.

H.V.L. “The Spirit of life” would be a subjective thought, wouldn’t it?

J.T.Jr I know, but it is a fixed position in Christ, that, you know. It is not exactly what is in you. “The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus” sets you free from something. But then the Person is really how you apprehend how He leads you into that.

Ques. So the apostle could say, Mr Taylor, “I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded,” 1 Tim. 1 : 12. That man goes through, doesn’t he?

J.T.Jr It is the man there. You see, you have a position before you.

Ques. Are you getting at these men now? Have you got them, these men? “Choose us men.” Are you getting them?

J.T.Jr Well, you are an old man, I think, aren’t you? These were young men.

Ques. Yes, but that is inward, isn’t it? – “I know whom I have believed.”

J.T.Jr Yes. You are exactly right; that is the Person.

T.W.H. Is that why the apostle returns to the individual in the second verse of Romans 8: “For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free”?

J.T.Jr The “me” is free; that is himself. He is not saying ‘you’; he says, ‘himself’. But you want to get the distinction between the position and the Person.

E.A.K. Is nailing things in Colossians an inward matter, and the things fixed in that way? I recall what your father said in London at one time in relation to that. Things are nailed.

J.T.Jr They are fixed.

E.A.K. After circumcision, it is what is nailed to the cross. Do not we have to do that – nail things?

J.T.Jr Well, that is right. I think you fix them. Well, now you are speaking about a man like that, and you take J.N.D. – these men not only knew the position but they were there. That is the difference between our present leaders, I mean, our recent ones. They knew where the place was but they were not in it, that is all! Now we hope to get them in it. We will not call their names because they would rather go in the dungeon again. You want your leaders. We do not want to lose them, because God has raised them up. And we want them now not only to speak about the position we are to be brought to, but by exemplification show what it is – they live there.

See, these chapters in Numbers will help us. It is twenty minutes to eight. How far have we got, do you think, in this? We want to get on and get the brethren into the inheritance, you know. What is the programme tonight? Another meeting, or go on with this one?

Ques. What would you wish?

J.T.Jr Well, I’d just like to wish, — , that we are getting somewhere; that is all. All I would like before I go home, to know the brethren have judged this Judaizing condition. I’d like to know that! This Judaizing condition is just revenge; it is vindictiveness. Have we judged it? Are we through with it? I would like to go home with a sense of that and that we are really moving on to the land. That is what Joshua’s got in mind.

D.J.M. I think that is the real desire.

J.T.Jr Well, I would think so, but we want that. But you see, the flesh in us is so deceitful and so wanting to be revenged. That is the flesh in us; that is Amalek. He is coming. He comes all the time. And so Moses says, “Choose us men”; get at this thing, – Amalek, – in every one of us, sin in the flesh. That is what it is; it is sin in the flesh. All these kind of varied things are the same thing; it is sin in the flesh. And Joshua is to break the power of that. And that is an inward thing. You get it broken in your own soul. Are we really free from revenge in this meeting? Are we? Or don’t you admit there was such? Are we free of it?

Rem. I see you’ve got to get to this thing that diverted you from the spiritual leadership. It is a deep and inward thing and becomes the seed of every feeling of revenge and vindictiveness, because it means that your motive, your wrong motive, has been cut across somewhere.

J.T.Jr There is no formation in you when there is an activity of vindictiveness and revenge; there is no formation whatever going on. The enemy is succeeding. Well, let us not let him succeed; let us break his power.

D.J.M. “The edge of the sword” would be the entire acceptance of what has come out tonight.

J.T.Jr Well, why shouldn’t we? Why should we keep with us what the flesh is? And the flesh is just obnoxious to God. If we are seeking revenge or seeking vindictiveness or holding something in our souls about somebody, no matter what they did, that is not the gospel. The gospel is not that. If a man judges himself, he is not judged.

J.C. The indignation and the vengeance in 2 Corinthians would be with ourselves in this connection.

J.T.Jr That is right. It is happening in ourselves. But they were really repenting according to God.

D.B.J. That would again be related to the matter of our minds, would it – the way we think of persons?

J.T.Jr The mind is then the descending mind, that is the humble mind. I think what Romans 8 deals with, in the great line of it, is the mind. The mind of the Spirit is full of the gospel; that is what the mind of the Spirit is, it is full of the gospel. The gospel is forgiveness. I don’t mean to forgive people where they have not judged themselves; I don’tmean that at all. It is where that is seen that forgiveness comes. That is the order of the truth.

E.G.E. When the Lord Jesus turned and looked at Peter, he went out and wept bitterly (Luke 22 : 61 - 62). All his self-confidence was gone, wasn’t it?

J.T.Jr That is right.

Rem. So when he came to the Acts, he could say to the man, “Look on us. . . . Silver and gold I have not; but what I have, this give I to thee: In the name of Jesus Christ the Nazaræn rise up and walk,” Acts 3 : 5 - 6.

J.T.Jr We have forgotten, you know, about the Lord’s intercession there. He says, “I have besought for thee,” Luke 22 : 32. We have forgotten about the Lord’s advocacy. And if a brother is up for a charge, there should be an advocate; he is entitled to representation.

Now, that is what the Lord means when He says through John, “If any one sin, we have a patron with the Father,” 1 John 2 : 1.

E.G.E. That would bring out really the grace of the dispensation, wouldn’t it? The Lord says, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do,” Luke 23 : 34.

J.T.Jr Well, that is the Advocate, I would say. He would say to His Father, ‘Can We do something for this man? Can we get him to a position where We can forgive him?’ That is the Advocate, you know. In ordinary matters in court, it is pretty much the same. But how great it is to see the Advocate before the Father. He pleads your case at once and He brings in the full thought of the gospel.

J.C. In one of the early readings you spoke about the state that was with us. Is this lack of this inward lead all responsible for the state?

J.T.Jr There won’t be any state that is right where there are Moabitish conditions. Where there is Amalek having full effect amongst us, you won’t get any spiritual lead at all. And where you get a mental line in the truth, you won’t get any spiritual lead either; you will get people just acknowledging what you are saying is all right. But Joshua refers to an inward state in you that knows secretly Christ’s leadership, and I urge upon the brethren to find it out. Just know something about Christ’s leadership in your soul.

C.A.H. You referred earlier to the sisters’ part in this. I was thinking of Deborah, how she arose a mother in Israel (Judg. 5 : 7). Is that leadership?

J.T.Jr Yes. It shows, you see, she drew. It is the assembly of course there, you know; it is really the assembly that is in mind. So let the assembly be like Deborah. She is concerned about the overthrow of what is of God. The local assembly then is following a spiritual lead, and it will always do so. But to think of this wide country here and the many meetings you have got, it is certainly of God; that is of God. What is the devil at? He says, if I can hinder formation in those people, I am going to do it. And I think that is just what he’s been at; hinder the formation of God in our souls.

Ques. Is the result of Joshua that he [Gideon] is able to say later on, “As I do, so shall ye do,” Judg. 7 : 17?

J.T.Jr Well, that is I think an inward thing, that you follow. Follow Christ inwardly. This is what I think the Spirit of God is laying on us in this meeting. It is not just the outward terms of commandment. The Lord says, of course, “He that has my commandments and keeps them, he it is that loves me,” John 14 : 21.

The love is the inwards; the commandment is the outwards. I think the Spirit of God is aiming at something around us here that the devil is hindering and wants to hinder the formation of Christ in your soul. And he has been successful to a certain extent. Now, let us break his power and let us see the work of God go on in our souls.

R.C.R. Does Amalek involve not only my own proclivities, but that Satan is always at me through those things?

J.T.Jr He seizes on them, I think.

Rem. Yes.

J.T.Jr I think Satan seizes on certain things he sees outstanding in you.

Rem. And in that way he is against Christ, “the hand is on the throne of Jah,” Exod. 17 : 16

J.T.Jr I believe he is against Christ in the saints, and he is against Christ in His government generally; but he is against Christ in formation. And we want to see the formation of God going on in our souls, and when that goes on the devil will attack you twice as fast and he won’t let you go. Once he sees Christ being formed in you, you will get more attacks, but Joshua breaks his power. And you find that continually, that the power of Satan broken in your soul enables you to allow the Spirit to form Christ in you. And Christ being formed in you leads to Christ in you, and Christ in you leads to Christ dwelling in you. Now that is quite a long scope, but that is the truth. Christ in you means He is having His way, and Christ dwelling in you means He is complacent in you.

D.C.W. Does that involve the maintenance of a humble and contrite heart?

J.T.Jr I think so, because Christ was always that. If Christ is in you, I think you would be humble.

H.S.H. Could you say, Mr Taylor, just a little as to Moses building the altar just at this point?

J.T.Jr Well, it would allude to the service of God, I think. This all means of course the priestly system is in function, and if you feel the brethren are not getting on in their souls the thing is to lift up Moses’ hands and hold them up, and don’t let them go down.

So we watch a local meeting and see whether the brethren are getting on in their growth, and if they are not, you lift up the hands of Moses, and you will find then the growth will go on.

R.C.R. You mean by that that the authoritative side has to be helped by what is working in us?

J.T.Jr I think the authoritative side has to always be maintained, and the priestly side in keeping the hands up of Moses; keep it up. Aaron and Hur refer to the priestly side and pure side amongst the brethren that want Christ in you; they want formation of Christ. You see, this battle will never be given up. There is war from generation to generation. It won’t give up. And the thing is whether Satan will succeed or whether Christ will succeed. The battle is in your own soul; that is where it is.

Ques. Mr Taylor said, didn’t he, that it is in the warp and woof of assembly life, the exercise of Romans 7?

J.T.Jr Yes. Then, I think, that Moses represents a position amongst us, and Aaron and Hur represent a certain thing that see what God is at. So your concern is not only for your own soul, your concern is for the souls of the brethren, and you want the souls of the brethren growing in the knowledge of God. You want Christ in the saints.

Ques. Is that the point in rehearsal, Mr Taylor? You were saying you were hoping you were getting something through to us; but supposing that is so, this line of rehearsal is so necessary, isn’t it – going over and over the thing, maintaining it?

J.T.Jr So week to week, the ministry meeting, the reading; it is rehearsals.

H.J.G. What would be in mind in regard to where it says, “his hands were steady until the going down of the sun” (v. 12)?

J.T.Jr The going down of the sun, I think, always involves a completed exercise. It is completed. And for us, it would mean it is a completed exercise from the call of this meeting. You called the meeting, you called the brethren together. That is external. The going down of the sun, I think, would mean there is something reached in the brethren; the exercise is complete.

Ques. And even in a physical way, Mr Taylor, that is a glorious matter, isn’t it? You look at the sun going down in the west. It is a glorious matter, isn’t it?

J.T.Jr Well, it is, but it always would bring up, I think, the completed matter – that is, Christ going down into death, a completed matter; the thing is finished. It always would bring up into your soul why He went down and what He took down with Him. And am I retaining anything that He suffered for? Am I retaining anything and keeping on with it? We want to get through to the exercise – the sun goes down. I think it means the brethren have completed the exercise that the meeting was called for.

E.A.K. Does that involve something more than conviction; that it would carry on to dedication?

J.T.Jr The thing is to see ourselves different, Mr Kelsey, I believe, through any meeting. And the meetings are going on, rehearsed, rehearsed, rehearsed, to see ourselves changed. And those things that worried the brethren are not there any more; they don’t exist any more. The sun has gone down.

R.T.B. These matters, Mr Taylor, would help us to get our assembly meetings completed rightly, would they, because we need to learn to judge righteous judgments? We have had a look at a lot of judgments recently.

J.T.Jr I know, but you may be looking at too many. You want the Lord amongst you for that. I don’t think we should be doing things the Lord is not in. I don’t say that we should not put an assembly judgment right, but we may go to extremes in that too. We want the Lord with us in this, and if the sun’s gone down, it’s gone down; the thing is finished. If anybody is wrongly out of fellowship, well, get them back in if you can. If they are dead, the thing is finished anyway.

Let us see we have called this meeting for something and let us see what result there is. Do we know something more about Joshua in you tonight, Christ in you, do you know something about it? It is not external leadership, it is Christ in you.

Ques. Would that be the truth of the word in Isaiah 4, seven women taking hold of one man, and what flows out of that?

J.T.Jr Well, I’d like to apply it. Maybe you can a bit.

Rem. I certainly have plenty to apply to.

J.T.Jr Seven women taking hold of one man. You mean Christ is the Man? Yes, that’s good. Let the women think about that. They are probably holding on to the wrong man, or if they haven’t got a man, they want one! Do better without one, some of them! Yes, let them hold on to Christ, I would say. Seven women laying hold of one man.

Well, Christ in you is something I can’t put in you and you can’t put in me. I can’t do that. Ministry is that the rain will come. We have had enough of it, but the Lord keeps on sending the rain in any case, the same rain, the same thing; and it is not only the authority, to bow to it, but get this, something in your own soul that keeps you right. You are satisfied. The thing is to see a satisfied Christian. “The trees of Jehovah are satisfied,” Ps. 104 : 16. They have got this, they have got Christ in them. Go on, Mr — — , you are saying something? Excuse me.

Ques. Does Saul represent the man that could not deal with Amalek? He spared Agag.

J.T.Jr Oh yes, he could not deal with him, he liked him. What do you like, Mr — ? Do you like Amalek, do you like him?

Rem. I did.

J.T.Jr Well, sure. We would all have to say that. You liked Amalek in all his varied forms, you liked him. So Satan got his full power in us. We did not break his power. Now the Lord says, ‘I broke the power; now you do it by having Me in you.’ You can be sure that this war is going on and his hand is on the throne, but don’t let that happen in your care meeting again.

Ques. Paul travailed, didn’t he?

J.T.Jr What?

E.G.E. Paul travailed again until Christ should be formed in them (Gal. 4 : 19). There has been that, hasn’t there?

J.T.Jr Yes. Well, that should be the minister. He should do that; he should not be just haphazard.

The Lord has no use for haphazard people, you know, or people that do their work negligently; He don’t have any use for them. We want to have an objective in mind; and my objective, if I’ve got anything, is that we have something in our souls, you have got a leader in yourself. Now, if that can be reached in us, I think you are going to go on to the land pretty quick then. You get into the land quick, you know, after Christ is in you.

R.C.R. You were making a third point of Christ dwelling “through faith, in your hearts,” Eph. 3 : 17.

J.T.Jr ‘Dwelling’; I think it is a further thought than Christ in you. I think dwelling means that the Lord is finding an interest in the place He has come into; He really likes it. He really likes being in you because you are just following on what is in the divine mind. Christ says, ‘I’ll dwell there.’ And don’t forget, dear brethren, you have got administrative matters, and do not let the hand of Satan maintain the throne. He will get his hand in there if he can, he is always at it – put his hand on the throne; but the Spirit of God says, ‘No, Christ is to be on the throne.’ What Christ is, is to be amongst us in every sense. No allowance then for Amalek to get any way with us in our meetings of administration.

E.E.R.T. Paul bowed his knees to make that expression, “that the Christ may dwell, through faith, in your hearts,” Eph. 3 : 17.

J.T.Jr It is the centre of the universe, the centre of your heart, the centre of everything. He dwells there.

Ques. It says that God “rested from all his work,” Gen. 2 : 3. Is that the end of administration, that we reach inward rest?

J.T.Jr Yes, He rests; God rested. Well, see you do that, that our administration is that God can rest in it.

Rem. What I had in mind was your remark a moment ago as to that you could not put Christ into a brother and a brother could not put Christ into you, but Paul really had the great scope before him when he bowed his knees.

J.T.Jr That is the energy of his knees. I would say that it is a further point in that chapter, isn’t it? It is a further thing in the chapter, because Christianity is to bring us to the fulness of things. And I would say Ephesians 3 is the greatest energy Paul shows, his priestly capacity, that Christ should dwell in the hearts of the brethren.

F.R.H. “Christ in you” involves formation, doesn’t it? Would that mean that there is a certain force, a certain energy that impels you forward? It says, “Go out, fight.”

J.T.Jr It is really what leads you into the land, I think, the inheritance. The thing is what the bent of your mind is, you know. If it is bent towards things in the world, then that is not Christ in you, that is all. Christ in you is always in the same direction. It leads to where God is, in His own sphere.

D.J.M. It goes on to being “filled even to all the fulness of God,” Eph. 3 : 19. That is the direction, isn’t it?

J.T.Jr That is the direction, I would say, and this chapter has the direction in mind. It is the seventeenth chapter of Exodus, and the Spirit of God is going to open His heart to the brethren as the chapters go on. He is going to open His heart to them and say to them certain things – that they would be His priests. And it would all, I think, bear on what we are saying, that the wilderness is a place where there is no path to be seen, there is no path outwardly to be seen. The path is this secret way that leads to the land where God is.

J.S.H. Would this be the source of your directions then, Mr Taylor? The apprehension of Christ leading inwardly would be the source of your directions?

J.T.Jr I think “Christ in you” is the lead. It is Joshua known this way. It is the authority, it is always there, and then it finally becomes Joshua without Moses, it finally becomes that. It is not that the authority is given up, but Moses ceases, so to speak, and it is Joshua alone that God is speaking to.

T.W.H. So it says that he shall cause the people to inherit, Joshua shall cause the people to inherit (Deut. 1 : 38).

J.T.Jr That is right, yes. That is Christ, you know. It is not any brother can do that, but of course Christ can use a brother to do something, or else we would not be here. He will use you to do something; He will use you to preach. Well, He will use you to preach. We have got very few teachers amongst us, if any. I don’t know if we have got any teachers amongst us. But if we can get somebody to go somewhere, I think that is all right. Get them to move toward the land; move away from all these natural things, ability, and so on, and you find the brother has changed. Why, he is not the same man; what has happened to him? Oh, Christ is in him! It is not himself in him any more; it is Christ in him.

Ques. Could you help us, Mr Taylor, as to this matter of suspension? “Christ in you”, – does that mean that you are helped then to be able to suspend?

J.T.Jr Any time you can do that, any time. How do you find it? Can you suspend that business of yours and say you never had it?

Ans. Well, it is a test but I am getting some help in it.

J.T.Jr Yes, it is quite a test, isn’t it! I got no business; it’s gone! That is quite a test. If you got no business, you would not have any to suspend, of course! Poor people do not have much to suspend. All they want is your money! There is nothing in that, there is nothing in being poor, you know. Not a bit! There is nothing spiritual in that. We want to be spiritual. The poor – the Lord is speaking about the poor, poor in spirit. That is the kind of a poor person you want – poor in spirit. Well, I think we have had enough unless you want to say some more, — ?

Ques. Do I understand, Mr Taylor, the point of this meeting would be Romans 3 : 23 – ‘We have all sinned’? In a way, there have been those in every locality responsible, have felt a good deal in regard to matters; but should we go away from this meeting, every one with their heart being searched and saying, ‘We have all sinned in this matter’?

J.T.Jr Yes. I think we should, because we have all been in it, one way or another, been in this thought of penalty, of vindictiveness. And if the Lord reaches that in us, I think we can find now a spiritual lead, we will say we have got a lead inwardly. We have reached the Spirit of God in that sense, Christ in you. We have often said these things, and they are in the ministry.

But what you want to find is the thing in yourself, that Christ is in you, and then with Christ in you, He is leading you toward the inheritance, and He is going to say, ‘I am going to make you possess that; that is yours.’

Ques. Does that correspond with what is in the type beyond the brazen serpent and the springing well so that we are going directly forward now? I know it means more than that, but I mean to get into the land. There is no wandering after that. We have been wandering here all the time, haven’t we?

J.T.Jr We all have been. I would think we all have been doing it, – wandering in your mind is the main thing. People wander in their minds, you know. And you certainly got no limit to that, no limit to where you can wander in your mind. So “Christ in you” is that your mind is under control and you see the objective. It is out of death, it is out of the flesh, it is an entire new thing, it is of God, God. You say, I want that! Christ in you wants that; He leads you to it.

The Spirit of God is in us first, you know, and He makes way for Christ. He makes all the room He can in you for Christ. Then Christ comes into you and He dwells in you. Then you find you are satisfied; you do not want anything else, you are content.

C.J.McA. In both instances of dissatisfaction, in the murmuring, Exodus 17 and Numbers 21, the answer is the Spirit.

J.T.Jr Yes, it is in both connections. You have got to compare this book with the book of Numbers, because the book of Numbers gives you a definite point where we come to recognising Him.

Then the exposure of the saints, exposed not only by Balaam but by their own condition; but then the main thing was they were getting on to the land. And Joshua comes forward in the twenty-seventh chapter to indicate that. You have got a man there that Moses says, without naming him, he says, “Let the God of the spirits of all flesh,” (v. 16) – that is Moses bringing out His greatness, as to who God is; He is “the God of the spirits of all flesh” – he says, ‘Let him, let such a one lead them into the land,’ he says. We want that, and you find that in yourself, a leadership in yourself that is going to take you right into your inheritance.

V.T.S. Will the formation then be just the opposite to this vindictiveness?

J.T.Jr It is where I think the Spirit of God is free in you, He can form you. Where the sin is working in you, there is no formation. Satan is in that in Romans 8. Sin in the flesh – Romans 7. That is where Satan is. He says, ‘I will keep you like that; – there will be no formation.’

Rem. I was thinking of Deborah in her victory, the result of that formation with her was that she made the most of what was in someone else, and that was Jael.

J.T.Jr Well, somebody then comes to something in Deborah. I think she means the assembly. The assembly is coming to something and seeing where the leadership is. It is in such a person, and the assembly comes to that. It is in a spiritual person you get a lead into the land.

W.J.D. Mr Taylor, is this inward leadership seen in Gideon when he is told, “Go in this thy might,” Judg. 6 : 14?

J.T.Jr “Thy might” would be inward; yes. He said he did not have it, but he did have it.

We might say we do not have it. God would encourage and say, ‘You have got it. Go in this thy might.’

P.R.P. Would the habitation of God in the Spirit be the objective?

J.T.Jr Well, exactly. That is relationship really with the heavenly position and the earthly one, I mean the Corinthian one. And it is the heavenly persons that were able really to influence Corinth, the heavenly persons. You get into Canaan, and you know how to influence the brethren. You are not partial, you are not natural, you are not bringing in your ability, you are influencing everything from Canaan, and that is exactly what we have in Caleb and Joshua. These men influenced the position from the land. They knew what influencing everything from Canaan, and that is exactly what we have in Caleb and Joshua. These men influenced the position from the land. They knew what the land was, and they influenced the brethren from that point.

H.C.M. You have spoken about getting our directions at the Supper. Would that bear on this inward formation?

J.T.Jr Yes, it does. It is the inward side. We obey the commandment, that is the announcements. But the inward side is where the Lord comes to, but in relation, I believe, to the commandment. That gives you an impulse for the week. But I think we need to work that out, you know. The impression you get, you work it out, and it is not just perhaps as concise as you thought. I believe the Lord will work that thing out in your soul to something far greater than you ever thought. Thus we should make so much of His coming in amongst us.

Rem. We had a very good word last Lord’s day on that very thing. The brother was addressing the Lord straight after the Supper in worship and he said, ‘It is at this point that we find our link with Thyself.’

J.T.Jr That point, yes. He comes on to our side.

E.S.T. I think you commented the other day, Mr Taylor, that the approved in Corinth would be Ephesian saints. Does that ensure that the leadership in the local assembly will always be spiritual when the approved have control?

J.T.Jr Yes, I think so. So that we can take it to heart, —, take that to heart that the approved amongst us would not let things go, and they would not give a wrong lead. Let us take it to heart because the Lord means to carry on in a meeting with the approved: that is, those who are committed fully to His interests and that are not governed by partial things. They are not in any way revengeful; they are carrying on the truth of the gospel in the local meeting.